Curse

Zuranthium · Aug 18, 2007, 07:45 AM // 07:45

In looking at the 3 weapons of the Warrior, their uses can be divided pretty easily:

Hammer - shutdown

Axe - spike

Sword - pressure

Hammer Warriors are fine and balanced right now so I'll leave them out of this.

However, in comparing Axe and Sword Warriors, the Axe now outclasses Swords for most any situation. The blame rests solely upon Agonizing Chop. This little skill not only allows Axes to be better at both spiking (because of damage compression) and pressure (quick activation time means you get to your next attack faster), but adds a whole extra dimension of UTILITY to the mix. By having a guaranteed interrupt after landing their Deep Wound attack, it adds an extra threat on top of the already useful ability of a quick attack and extra damage that has been provided by the skill. If asked to choose between Agonizing Chop and Executioner's Strike, any smart Warrior would pick Agonizing 100% of the time for ANY Axe bar. Of course, most people are running both because it's even more deadly that way.

You simply has to ask why on earth Crippling Slash was nerfed to 6 Adren at the same time Agonizing was buffed. Even before the slight nerf to Swords and the buff to Axes, more and more Guilds had already switched to running Axe instead of Sword.

So what can be done about this clearly imbalanced skill? Right now, I'm leaning towards removing the damage bonus entirely. The power of a quick attack plus interrupt is enough for the skill to remain worthwhile.

At the same time, I'd suggest reducing the adrenaline cost of Sever Artery, Crippling Slash, and Dragon Slash by 1 point. Crippling Slash was just fine at 5 Adren, Sever Artery simply needs that buff to become a bit more serious as pressure, and Dragon Slash clearly needs a small push because with the buff to "For Great Justice!", it can already recharge itself instantly at a 10 Adren cost and nobody is using it. Barbarous Slice should also be changed to 9 Adren (a nerf in this manner), but with unconditional Bleeding (a certain buff...a Warrior is almost ALWAYS going to be in a stance, it's quite a useless skill right now), and it would be interesting if Quivering Blade caused Dazed on the opponent, instead of yourself, considering the strength of Guardian and the popularity of Shield of Deflection.

As always, I say let let there be more variety.

~Z

Riotgear · Aug 18, 2007, 08:01 AM // 08:01

I don't really see this sort of problem. Dragon Slash is still seen occasionally, Cripslash-Conjure I see all the time (and conjure+S&M = nasty spike). Agonizing Chop might be a bit too good right now (remind me why Critical Chop was nerfed and now it's back with a 6a cost?), but I certainly haven't seen any signs that sword is going extinct.

Quote:

and it would be interesting if Quivering Blade caused Dazed on the opponent, instead of yourself

Quivering Blade is essentially a short-buildup version of DS, which is useful for smaller formats.

Byron · Aug 18, 2007, 08:13 AM // 08:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Sword Warriors, the Axe now outclasses Swords for most any situation. The blame rests solely upon Agonizing Chop.

No, I'd say the blame rests more on monk skills, namely mending touch. Most split characters have it, and some monks pack it. It pretty much halts sword pressure because of the bleeding requirement of gash. Even after a crip slash->gash, a mending touch will remove bleeding and deep wound on top of a nice heal; then it's like you have to start over.

Agonizing chop is more of a spiking skill by design, and axe already has a solid spike with eviscerate. The interrupting capability is sub-par imo, usually luck. Deep wounds rarely last long enough to get a timed interrupt off. I think most warriors take it for the quick hit.

Quote:

If asked to choose between Agonizing Chop and Executioner's Strike, any smart Warrior would pick Agonizing 100% of the time for ANY Axe bar.

I'd take executioner's tbh. It's a better damage compliment to eviscerate.

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You simply has to ask why on earth Crippling Slash was nerfed to 6 Adren at the same time Agonizing was buffed.

Crip slash at 4 adren was nuts, that's why. Even pre-nerf mending touch couldn't handle it.

Swords arent bad, they just don't fit the meta right now. Everyone brings wards, aegis, blind, and likely SoD. Or they have stance monks. Melee then necessarily relies on opportunistic kills, not pure pressure, gained by quick hits(axe) and shutdown (hammer).

Zuranthium · Aug 18, 2007, 08:17 AM // 08:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

Quivering Blade is essentially a short-buildup version of DS, which is useful for smaller formats.

Quivering Blade is Cleave, on a Weapon that requires an extra skill for you to cause Deep Wound. It can become more valuable than that but you have to add yet another skill, Plague Touch, for it to do so. Btw, the "buff" to Plague Touch was simply laughable...did they really expect people to spec up to an attribute Rank of a 8 just for the skill to become equal in value to Mending Touch? Should be a breakpoint of 4 to transfer two conditions with Plague Touch and a breakpoint of 12 to transfer three (and of course absolutely no melee character is actually going to spec that high, but it's funny when the Curse Necros try to become "meleemancers" in other forms of PvP anyway).

----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byron

Crip slash at 4 adren was nuts, that's why. Even pre-nerf mending touch couldn't handle it.

Yes, but Cripslash was nerfed from 4 adren to 5, not 4 to 6. And it was fine at 5. Not sure why it had to go further.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byron

I'd take executioner's tbh.

Absolute fail.

~Z

Thomas.knbk · Aug 18, 2007, 08:47 AM // 08:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Absolute fail.

~Z

lol?

Assuming you're speaking of an eviscerate bar, I'd pick executioners. The interrupt part of Agonizing is largely irrelevant, and Evis/Agonizing isn't going to kill anyone. Evis/Exe is.

*lemming* · Aug 18, 2007, 08:55 AM // 08:55

Dchop says hi.

Zuranthium · Aug 18, 2007, 08:56 AM // 08:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas.knbk

lol?

Assuming you're speaking of an eviscerate bar, I'd pick executioners. The interrupt part of Agonizing is largely irrelevant, and Evis/Agonizing isn't going to kill anyone. Evis/Exe is.

It's hardely irrelevant, as interrupting a Monk's spell means you just did that much more damage (and that does happen more frequently than "rarely"), and the quick attack speed means you get to your next attack faster, creating MORE damage within the timeframe than you would have with Eviscerate + Executioner's + a few tenths of a second.

EDIT: Lemming...<3

~Z

Barbie goes guru · Aug 18, 2007, 01:56 PM // 13:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

In looking at the 3 weapons of the Warrior, their uses can be divided pretty easily:

Hammer - shutdown

Axe - spike

Sword - pressure

...

As always, I say let let there be more variety.

~Z

Gratz! You complain there is not enough variety when you yourself see each weapon doing such a narrow job. You also quite clearly argue that giving axe pressure is bad.

As for epic failure using executioners > agonising? Go home please, your argument that interrupting a monks spell will cause more damage is weak, what if you arent on a monk? what if that monk has a brain and realises 'this warrior has agonising. HES GOING TO USE IT AFTER EVISCERATE?' You wont interrupt then and your argument is equivalent to a steaming pile of poo.

Dzan · Aug 18, 2007, 02:33 PM // 14:33

Maybe you're the best warrior in the game, and know something we don't, but I hardly see anyone using Agonizing Chop in high end pvp.

The reason you don't see crip slash and see a lot of axes has to do, like others have said, with Mending Touch (and RC to a lesser exten) on monk bars.

Also, every good axe bar has Bulls Strike and often Shock which both fulfill the "don't kite me" role that Crip Slash does, and in my opinion those two do it more reliably than Crip Slash.

Zuranthium · Aug 18, 2007, 04:23 PM // 16:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barbie goes guru

Gratz! You complain there is not enough variety when you yourself see each weapon doing such a narrow job. You also quite clearly argue that giving axe pressure is bad.

No, those roles are what each weapon is catered to. There's simply no denying it. Hammers have knockdown skills, the others don't. Axes have non-conditional Deep Wound, the others don't. Swords have more efficient weapon attacks, in theory. Of course there should be fluidity and variety within each weapon in addition to the basic core function that each one is geared towards.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barbie goes guru

As for epic failure using executioners > agonising? Go home please, your argument that interrupting a monks spell will cause more damage is weak, what if you arent on a monk? what if that monk has a brain and realises 'this warrior has agonising. HES GOING TO USE IT AFTER EVISCERATE?' You wont interrupt then and your argument is equivalent to a steaming pile of poo.

If the skill is actively causing monks to not cast while the Warrior is spiking them, it's clearly achieved a goal. Yes? Other than that, you're ignoring the flexibility that the skill provides when splitting. Being able to interrupt an M-Touch, a Troll, a snare, whatever, with your spike skill is very strong skillbar compression.

~Z

Thomas.knbk · Aug 18, 2007, 04:36 PM // 16:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

If the skill is actively causing monks to not cast while the Warrior is spiking them, it's clearly achieved a goal. Yes? Other than that, you're ignoring the flexibility that the skill provides when splitting. Being able to interrupt an M-Touch, a Troll, a snare, whatever, with your spike skill is very strong skillbar compression.

~Z

If you want to waste your deep wound on me to interrupt my troll unguent instead of trying to win the game by spiking down my monks, be my guest, then I'll be more than happy to let you interrupt my troll unguent.

As for interrupting the monk, let's see what skills monk typically use when there's a spike taking place:

Protective Spirit, 1/4s cast
Spirit Bond, 1/4s cast
Shield of Deflection, 1/4s cast
Infuse Health 1/4s cast
Return, 1/4s cast
Dark Escape, instant cast
Diciplined Stance, instant cast

Seeing a pattern? If you're going to interrupt any of those (not infuse ofcourse because you can't infuse yourself), it's going to be based purely on luck.
Then I'm even leaving out that a) the monk has to be a complete retard to use an interruptable spell after you just used eviscerate, b) the monk is likely thrown on his ass from a gale, c) the monk probably has shame and/or diversion on him, and d) you might wanna spike someone else than their monk every now and then in which case it's even more irrelevant.

Agonizing's strength is its quick activation time. Nothing else.

B E A S T · Aug 18, 2007, 04:46 PM // 16:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas.knbk

If you want to waste your deep wound on me to interrupt my troll unguent instead of trying to win the game by spiking down my monks, be my guest, then I'll be more than happy to let you interrupt my troll unguent.

As for interrupting the monk, let's see what skills monk typically use when there's a spike taking place:

Protective Spirit, 1/4s cast
Spirit Bond, 1/4s cast
Shield of Deflection, 1/4s cast
Infuse Health 1/4s cast
Return, 1/4s cast
Dark Escape, instant cast
Diciplined Stance, instant cast

Seeing a pattern? If you're going to interrupt any of those (not infuse ofcourse because you can't infuse yourself), it's going to be based purely on luck.
Then I'm even leaving out that a) the monk has to be a complete retard to use an interruptable spell after you just used eviscerate, b) the monk is likely thrown on his ass from a gale, c) the monk probably has shame and/or diversion on him, and d) you might wanna spike someone else than their monk every now and then in which case it's even more irrelevant.

Agonizing's strength is its quick activation time. Nothing else.

I completley agree, when spiking a monk, executioners strike is more useful, simply because there is only a slim chance of interrupting any of a monks spike survival skills. Swords seem to be just fine IMO, cripslash conjure is still seen more often then shock axe warriors [or other axe builds].

Zuranthium · Aug 18, 2007, 04:50 PM // 16:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas.knbk

If you want to waste your deep wound on me to interrupt my troll unguent instead of trying to win the game by spiking down my monks, be my guest, then I'll be more than happy to let you interrupt my troll unguent.

Huh? I'm talking about splitting. You're obviously not spiking down anyone in that situation. In a split situation, however, a key interrupt can most definitely leading to winning the skermish and perhaps the whole match.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas.knbk

Then I'm even leaving out that a) the monk has to be a complete retard to use an interruptable spell after you just used eviscerate

Eviscerate while in frenzy happens very quick. It's entirely possible that a monk could be about to heal someone else with Dismiss, starts casting it just a couple split seconds after the Eviscerate (they can't always know when it's coming after all), and then gets hit by Agonizing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas.knbk

d) you might wanna spike someone else than their monk every now and then in which case it's even more irrelevant.

The situation described above can be just as useful on a non-Monk when you hit a B-surge or Ward.

---------------------------------

EDIT: Here are some numbers I've collected from the GvG matches I've observed in the past day. Warrior usage in the top 100 has been:

Axe - 15 instances. 14 of those bars ran Eviscerate, 1 ran Cleave. 11 of the 14 bars used Agonizing Chop, as did the Cleave bar.

Hammer - 6 instances.

Sword - 3 instances. 2 ran Cripslash, 1 ran Dragon Slash. In these 3 matches where a guild ran a Sword Warrior, they lost all 3 times. The guild that ran the Dragon Slash switched to an Eviscerate bar with Agonizing Chop the very next game.

I will continue to collect data.

~Z

Thomas.knbk · Aug 18, 2007, 05:50 PM // 17:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Huh? I'm talking about splitting. You're obviously not spiking down anyone in that situation. In a split situation, however, a key interrupt can most definitely leading to winning the skermish and perhaps the whole match.

Exept that I have Natural Stride up while activating Troll, so there's only a 25% chance that you actually interrupt my troll unguent, provided you have it charged at that point. The point still stands though. If you're going to use your deep wound to interrupt my troll with instead of killing someone, be my guest.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Eviscerate while in frenzy happens very quick. It's entirely possible that a monk could be about to heal someone else with Dismiss, starts casting it just a couple split seconds after the Eviscerate (they can't always know when it's coming after all), and then gets hit by Agonizing.

Exept when you're about to spike a monk, there are two warriors running his way (or a war and a derv or whatever), and he is probably already taking the option into account that he's going to be spiked. If you're still busy healing others with dismiss when there are two warriors running at you and you SoD just got shattered, you're a total dipshit and you deserve to die.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

The situation described above can be just as useful on a non-Monk when you hit a B-surge or Ward.

You're not going to. I cast Bsurge BEFORE I get spiked. At least I try to. Not while I get spiked. (and I'm probably going to be on my ass during the spike, so I'm not casting anything)

The point is, that if you use agonizing for interrupting, you suck because you need to waste your deep wound for it, and that has better uses, and if you hope to randomly hit something on a spike, you're not going to 90% of the time. I'm not saying Agonizing is a bad skill, I think it's good, but it's because of the damage compression. The interrupt part is quite irrelevant. It's always a skill I'd take alongside executioners, not instead of. I don't think I've ever run an axe bar without executioners.

Dragon Slash is pretty bad right now because it needs to hit reliably to be worth anything. With all the wards and shit flying around, it's not. Cripslash isn't so good at 6 adrenaline, you're right about that, but that really doesn't have anything to do with Agonizing. It would still be bad if agonizing had a 5 second activation time and hit for -40 dmg.

Zuranthium · Aug 18, 2007, 06:22 PM // 18:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas.knbk

Exept that I have Natural Stride up while activating Troll, so there's only a 25% chance that you actually interrupt my troll unguent, provided you have it charged at that point. The point still stands though. If you're going to use your deep wound to interrupt my troll with instead of killing someone, be my guest.

You mean 50% (okay, just 25% if it's a sole Warrior vs. sole Ranger when you take MT into consideration...but we all know a single Ranger should be able to take on any single Warrior). And the point would be to kill YOU in the split situation. By your argument, Rangers should drop Natural Stride altogether and take a skill that's just a 100% speed boost (Storm Chaser, here we come!) since attacking a Ranger is apparently never worthwhile.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas.knbk

Exept when you're about to spike a monk, there are two warriors running his way (or a war and a derv or whatever), and he is probably already taking the option into account that he's going to be spiked.

Whoa, no. One Eviscerate Warrior, plus B-Arrow and Savage from a Ranger, plus Orb and Surge from the Elem (or Paragon attacks, if you're running that instead), plus Shatter from a Mesmer is often sufficient to kill a Monk when the other one has been shutdown. If it was a requirement for both of your melee to rush at a target for it to die or if indeed that's all your Guild does, well, I'm not even sure what to say.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas.knbk

You're not going to. I cast Bsurge BEFORE I get spiked.

Because, like, when you cast B-surge on someone it's obviously going to stick for the entire duration.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas.knbk

Dragon Slash is pretty bad right now because it needs to hit reliably to be worth anything.

There are always going to be blocking abilities flying around. That's part of the game. So.....

~Z

Neo-LD · Aug 18, 2007, 07:11 PM // 19:11

This is the most ridiculous collection of misinformation that I have ever seen. Zuranthium should be arrested or banned or something for attempting to make other players worse. As usual, the OP is filled with one illogical layer of fallacies after another, all adding up to something that will take 3+ pages for experienced players that actually know whats going on to set the record straight.

1. Agonizing Chop will almost never interrupt anything. Its strength is the quick activation time that allows it to be a deadly followup after Evi/Exe.

2. Agonizing Chop doesnt even make the top3 list for axe skills. Evi/Exe/Dchop > Evi/Exe/Agonizing > Evi/Agonizing/anything else.

3.

Quote:

Hammer - shutdown

Axe - spike

Sword - pressure

No, just no. To imply that each weapon is limited in scope to just those specific roles is ridiculous. All 3 forms of warriors can do each job perfectly well.

Spike - Hammer gets guarenteed leading KDs and generally deals the most damage per swing. Axe gets Evi/Exe and a bunch of fast-activation attacks, and Sword gets some skill called Final Thrust. Maybe you've heard of it.

Pressure - Just about any warrior can knocklock with Bulls/Shock, and hammer takes that to the next level with stuff like Deva + Bash. Axe and Sword bars make up for that with interrupts and faster attack speed. Sword even gets degeneration and snares.

4.

Quote:

In comparing Axe and Sword Warriors, the Axe now outclasses Swords for most any situation. The blame rests solely upon Agonizing Chop

Well, the first sentence is just about the only correct thing that you've said in the entire thread. The second sentence is absolute bullsh!t. Agonizing Chop doesnt have anything to do with it. Even if Agonizing didnt exist, Axe would still be way, way, way better right now. Here are the actual reasons why:

- Sword bars require 3 basic attack skills to be effective: Sever/Gash/Final, CS/Gash/S&M, or something like that. Axe bars require only 2: Evi/Exe. The extra slot can be used for anything. DChop, HealSig, DBlow, even Agonizing, etc.

- The advantages that the sword holds over Axe are access to degeneration (Sever or CS), and a superior ability to train a single target (CS). However, these advantages are utterly negated by several common skills in the current metagame. RC and MT make the Sword's degeneration look silly, not to mention they remove the cripple to restore the ability to kite. SoD, Guardian, and even SoR make the training of a single target impractical - playing warrior right now requires tons of target switching. Often times a Sword will have to abandon his assault on the foe he just immobilized with CS because he simply cant hit him anymore. Axe, on the other hand, can move from target to target seemlessly, without such loss any of momentum. Not to mention that Axe crits higher and thus has a slight edge in innate DPS.

5. Personally Im not convinced that it needs fixing, since Sword bars are still useful in some situations. It can be a very effective skirmish weapon since the only one its counters you are likely to encounter are MT and SoR, and you can/should bring DBlow for MT. It can be effective in 3 warrior setups for Charge!, and if you want a non-weapon elite like Corrupt Enchantment, then Sword is still the way to go. Heck, if you can devote the rest of your team to shutting down its counters, you can shove Sword's advantages down your opponents throats and still play Sword as a beatdown frontliner.

However, if there is one way to fix it, it would be to free Sword from its dependency on Bleeding (i.e. a different DW skill than Gash). That way sword would not be forced into 3 attack skills, and it would be less dependent on training single targets. But then Sword would lose its unique flavor, and I know you'd hate that.

Dzan · Aug 18, 2007, 07:25 PM // 19:25

Your main thesis is that agonizing chop is responsible for the lack of sword warriors, which is almost certainly not a causality.

Sword pressure was never that much better than axe pressure anyway for what its worth, and if you recall, over the past 2.5 years sword warriors were almost non-existent in pvp except for small blips after Crip Slash buff, You're All Alone and Air of Enchantments. Basically, swords always sucked for spikes and are only marginally better than axes for pressure. Agonizing Chop has almost nothing to do with that.

Besides, the ability of the melandru's dervish to pressure makes the use of sword warriors pretty bad. I'd say that counts for more of the disappearance than Agonizing chop.

Zuranthium · Aug 18, 2007, 08:07 PM // 20:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

1. Agonizing Chop will almost never interrupt anything. Its strength is the quick activation time that allows it to be a deadly followup after Evi/Exe.

Tell that to the people I watched die because their skills were interrupted. And one such match was the #3 ranked guild vs. the #15 ranked guild, so there's really no argument of "oh boo you, only sucky players can let it happen, blah blah blah".

Quote:

2. Agonizing Chop doesnt even make the top3 list for axe skills. Evi/Exe/Dchop > Evi/Exe/Agonizing > Evi/Agonizing/anything else.

Have fun convincing everyone of that. 0 of the 15 Axe builds I observed used Dchop.

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No, just no. To imply that each weapon is limited in scope to just those specific roles is ridiculous.

Never said they were. As already stated, each one is generally going to be better than the other weapons at said functions. You yourself actually went on to agree with this?

Quote:

Even if Agonizing didnt exist, Axe would still be way, way, way better right now. Here are the actual reasons why:

- Sword bars require 3 basic attack skills to be effective: Sever/Gash/Final, CS/Gash/S&M, or something like that. Axe bars require only 2: Evi/Exe.

Exactly what I've already said. Do you have problems reading?

Quote:

5. Personally Im not convinced that it needs fixing, since Sword bars are still useful in some situations. It can be a very effective skirmish weapon since the only one its counters you are likely to encounter are MT and SoR, and you can/should bring DBlow for MT. It can be effective in 3 warrior setups for Charge!

Dismember + Agonizing + Executioner's > Sever + Gash + Final. MOST DEFINITELY.

~Z

lacasner · Aug 18, 2007, 08:30 PM // 20:30

I think you need to broaden your spectrum of vision beyond GvG to fully assess sword vs. axe, although I do agree axe is better.

Relambrien · Aug 18, 2007, 08:34 PM // 20:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

You mean 50%.

50% for Evisc, 50% for agonizing = 25%